Sorry, everyone, I was abducted...

[flyingskull]

... by well-meaning family and forced to go to nan's (Jamaica) to recuperate from what they called: "Your cretinous propention for overwork."

I'm all rested now and very sun-kissed and things and here I am.

So dear baeraad asked me what a strong feminine woman would be like and I got to thinking about that. Fact is I don't know. I think there are two kind of differences in general between males and females of the species Homo Sapiens. One is physiological (different build of body, different hormonal fluxes and so on) and the other is social and cultural, the behavioural brainwashing we all get since birth.

The physiological differences are not immense or many, that's obvious, but they do colour our thoughts and emotions in part and, IMO, can't be dismissed as non-existent, BUT what really complicates things are the learnesd social responses so that it's now quite hard to understand when one's own attitudes and choices are truly one's own and when they are a reaction one way or another (embracing or rejecting) to social gender archetypes and stereotypes.

One woman may be strong because she embraces the cultural gender mores and lives a happy and fulfilled life; another may be strong because she rejects the cultural gender mores and attempts to re-create herself according to her views, thus living a happy and fulfilled life. I could go on for hours. Maybe being 'weak' for a woman could mean wanting to be a man - though, of course, not in the transgender sense - and have the virtues our culture attributes to males... but this sounds awfully like one of the worst clichés in history, after all.

So, yes, there's a bit of me who wants to say a 'strong' woman is one who accepts her physiology and lives as she thinks best, ignoring what other people tell her she should be, but the biggest part of me knows this is as fallacious as they come. Hell, I don't even know if I'm 'strong' or 'weak'. The only thing I can tentatively say is that probably I'm stronger now, after being physically weak and incapacitated for a long time, than I was before. Maybe all I am now is a little more aware of who I am. Maybe that's all the strength that's needed, what say?

Oh, ingriam, I haven't forgotten you and your interesting fics. Not at all. And, as you write Alkanphel TEH PRETTY!!ELEVENTYONE!!!11, look at my pretty in icon. :-D

Comments

[flyingskull.livejournal.com]

though "accept" does not have to mean "approve of." We accept what we cannot change. But we don't have to approve of something that was inflicted on us without our consent

I think you may have lost me here. Do you mean one should rebel against one's own physiology? Or, as the second part og this para seems to mean, that 'inflicted without consent' relates to social mores? If the sceond, yes, of course. Social mores are here to be questioned, analysed, embraced, ignored or fought against by all human being. I would love it if people deigned to analyse and question before reacting, but then I do have a scientific mind-set.

Also, because of chance, I was born in a atheist family and this makes me view religion-related problems in a very detached manner. I do understand what they are, I see they are there, but I'm not emotionally involved at all.

Well, always glad to bend your ear... Ahem, to give input, luv. First input is: don't write characters in reaction to characters written by other writers unless you write parody. *EG*

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

Do you mean one should rebel against one's own physiology?

If you don't like your physiology, then yes, you should rebel against it whenever it's possible to do so (the first example that comes to mind? Menstruation-suppressing drugs, which I understand is the subject of a lot of debate at the moment). When it's not possible, you accept it stoically - but you do not start forcing yourself to like it. You don't start thinking that it's right that your body disregards your wishes. It is your body - it, more than anything else in the world, should obey you, even if it doesn't.

This is a big part of my philosophy, if you're interested. :) Everyone deserves to have everything they want. This is not possible, because the world sucks. And the purpose of technology (and to some extent social reform and philosophy and so forth) is to make it suck a little less - to let the wishes of every human being make a bit more of an impact on the uncaring universe. But that isn't going to happen if people stick to the belief that their wishes shouldn't matter.

As for "inflicted without consent"... well, life itself is inflicted upon us without our consent, isn't it? I most certainly can't recall agreeing to get a body that gains three pounds whenever I have a cookie, but alas, that's what was imposed on me. =] And if there was a safe and reliable way to increase your metabolism, you'd better believe I'd use it... but I assume there isn't one, since my doctor keeps telling me to diet and excercise. I mean, if there's a viable alternative to that and she's been keeping it from me, I may have to strangle her... =]

First input is: don't write characters in reaction to characters written by other writers unless you write parody. *EG*

:P Elric of Melnibone. A favourite of yours, as I recall. Created in reaction to all the musclebound Conans of then-current literature. Okay? ;)

Anyway, let's see if I can change your mind... :) My idea is a character who isn't especially physically powerful, but who's a great diplomat and strategist. She's taken a whole lot of very different heroes, who don't like each other very much, and turned them into a coherent group - mostly by force of personality. She's also very aware that the battle she is fighting isn't only (or even primarily) a military one - the villain (who, yes, is a Satan figure - I freely admit it ;) ) has a never-ending source of recruits in people who live in squalor and will do anything for a chance to get out of their miserable situation, and if she wants to beat him, she's going to have to create some sort of alternative to him. Most people won't sell their souls if they have any kind of hope of making it on their own, so what she needs to do is provide people with some hope.

How does it sound thus far?

[flyingskull.livejournal.com]

Right, luv, go demanding of the universe to not be born or not to be male and see what the universe answwers you. There's a limit to 'so I think so shall it be' a huge big fucking limit that says:

"You a female of the species, you FUCKING MENSTRUATE! LIVE WITH IT OR HAVE A HYSTERECTOMY, SEE IF I CARE."

Females menstruate, males don't. Fact of life which one could alter (by Hysterectomy or cutting your prick once every 30 days more or less to see it bleed) but one can't fucking DENY. No matter how hard one wishes, biological and physiological reality is NOT NOT NOT going to change.

Oh, and there's surgery for just about everything, now, so I'm told there's an operation that apparently cuts off a bit of intestine so you can't get fatter or eat all that much. Be my guest. I've had umpteeens operations and, believe me, they ain't a bed of roses, but who am I to stand in the path of utter denial? Also, who the fuck cares if you're overweight or not? Obesity is a pathology, a malfunctioning of the body. If you're obese no dieting or exercising will cure you. If you're overweight according to current standards you can A) exercise and eat less or B) ignore the current standards of beauty.

Warrign with reality never seemed a good idea to me. Fighting current social mores by example and commitment seems a good idea to me. There's a difference, see? I am female. I love being female. Being female means I fuckign menstruate. I love it. Some female has dismenorrhea? My total and unending sympathy. Cramps and pains aren't lovely at all. Can it be helped? Some. Can't stand them anymore? Hysterectomy is your friend. What I can't symapthise with now or ever is the WHINGE WOE IS ME I HAVE PERIODS I SUFFER I CAN NOT STAND BEING FEMALE WOEZ WOEZ WOEZ! You were born female, suck it up. No, that's wrong: you are born female, get a hysterectomy, Fuck the monthly cramps to hell.

Also, you're childfree? Have a vesectomy. I mean modern surgery is the answer, innit? Solves so many problem with just a lil lancet cut and there you are! No menses no children. Life is now the mollusc of your choice. [/rant]

BTW your character - she's the princess, right? - rocks hardcore. :-D

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

Right, luv, go demanding of the universe to not be born or not to be male and see what the universe answwers you.

Didn't I cover this part already? I know what the universe answers. It answers "you've got to be kidding." I just fail to see why I should take that as the final word on the issue. Who died and left the universe in charge? =]

I mean, if I wanted to be female, there's surgery for that. The universe says no, but human ingenuity says yes. =] See what I mean?

Fact of life which one could alter but one can't fucking DENY.

Oh, you should certainly not deny it - that doesn't solve very much. But as you quite rightly point out, you can alter it, if you want. And why shouldn't you, if you want?

Really, I'm a little confused here. We don't seem to be discussing the same thing. Where does all this stuff about "denying reality" come from? All I've talked about is not making reality out to be better than it is.

Also, who the fuck cares if you're overweight or not?

Me, if I value my health. There are other reasons to lose weight than vanity, you know.

Warrign with reality never seemed a good idea to me.

"It's the perogative of every living creature, Mr Stibbons." ;)

There's a difference, see?

Uhm... I do not really see, I must admit. Unless you're talking about whining endlessly about something you can't do anything about, which is certainly a waste of energy (and no fun for others to listen to =]). But that was never what I was talking about. You can accept something as being a bummer without having to brood endlessly over how much you hate it. =]

Hysterectomy is your friend.

Here I must respectfully point out that there is not a legitimate doctor in the world who will remove a healthy uterus, no matter how much its owner begs and argues and assures him that she won't change her mind.

Also, you're childfree? Have a vesectomy.

Thank you, I would, were there any woman in the world who was willing to touch me with a ten-foot pole. And should such a woman appear in my life, you may rest assured that I would be pestering my doctor about it soon enough. :) Until then... (*sighs and shrugs*) Celibacy is the only form of birth control with a 100% success rate, so I really don't need anything else.

Though, again I must point out that doctors don't really prescribe sterilisation like asprin... okay, doctors don't prescribe asprin at all because it's prescription-free, but I can't think of any treatment that's very easy to get a prescription for. ^_^; My point is, it's damn tricky to get one of them, especially in some backward, barbaric countries. (*coughAmericacough*)

BTW your character - she's the princess, right? - rocks hardcore. :-D

Thank you. :D She is not, however, the character you're thinking about (though there are a lot of similarities, now that you mention it - I guess the idea is one that pops up in my head a lot. =]). Aseena is rather older and wiser than Tianna, and her flaws (I need flaws in a character to like her) tend to be more about letting go too easily than the opposite (which is Tianna's problem).

Apologies and admiration

[flyingskull.livejournal.com]

First of all, sorry for the CAPSLOCK OF BITCH (TM). I was either A) not as rested as I thought I was or, B) not as able to sustain a discussion about gender-roles in a civilised manner as I thought I was. You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. Have heaps of admiration. :-D

What I was trying to say is this:

I hear a lot of women railing against their bodies and the femaleness of their bodies, but I never hear men railing thus. Alright, there may be one or two men tellling women they wished they were taller or thinner, but I've never heard a male whingeing about how irritating balls were or how they wished they wouldn't have erections (transgendered persons excluded, of course, that's a different thing).

This, I think, happens because our culture is based on the unspoken dogma that males have the better body and females the prettier one. This is what irritates me no end. I'm very annoyed by females who belittle their femaleness (I know, ugly neologism). Hence my capslocks.

And now I better stop before I lose my cool again, a thing which I'm far too prone to do, as you know well.

Oh, on a side note, I never - not even once - said that Martin can't write well rounded, different, interesting and 'strong' female characters (or male ones, at that). My problem - if one wants to call it a problem - with Martin is not how he writes characters, it's his penchant for verbosity. :P

Re: Apologies and admiration

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

I think that's the nicest thing anyone could say to me. :D (*HUGS*)

And don't worry about it. There are topics that make my skin crawl, too. ^_^;

I hear a lot of women railing against their bodies and the femaleness of their bodies, but I never hear men railing thus.

Hmm. That's a very good point, actually. There's a whole bunch of drawbacks to being male. Why aren't men complaining? Men should complain. You're right, something's very wrong here. =]

I've read about this, come to think of it. Women in general are much more aware of all the fiddly bits they have that can go wrong. That's why men get blindsided by prostate problems and the likes - they are brought up to think they're invincible. It's stupid.

Okay. I'm with you. Sort of. At least I agree that there should be equal whining. =]

Re: Apologies and admiration

[flyingskull.livejournal.com]

I think that's the nicest thing anyone could say to me.

'S nothing nice, 's just the bare truth, so there.

I knew you would see the light once I started to type facts instead of rants.

But still...

Women in general are much more aware of all the fiddly bits they have that can go wrong

Erm... no. They are generally hammered at by TV and papers and radio and the netz with ZOMG! CHECK THAT BREAST CANCER THINGY! ZOMG! DISMENORRHEA MAY BE A SYMPTOM OF DIRE THINGS! GO CHECK THAT THAR OVERIES! etc etc

Do I see a ZOMG! GO CHECK THOSE BALLS! CANCER! GO CHECK THAT PROSTATE! etc? Nope, all I see is 'enlarge your penis make your girlfriend happy', mostly in my mailbox which is funny. Also, that kind of spam is not only offensive - and upsetting if you're 12 (oh alright, males. 12, 20, 40, 50... :P) - to males, it's highly offensive to females as well. We're not ALL size-whores.

But menstruation is not a 'fiddly bit' that goes wrong, my dear friend. Menstruation is a 'fiddly bit' that works right. Just saying, y'know? Nothing to see here. ;)

Re: Apologies and admiration

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

'S nothing nice, 's just the bare truth, so there.

But it was very nice of you to notice. ;)

Do I see a ZOMG! GO CHECK THOSE BALLS! CANCER! GO CHECK THAT PROSTATE! etc?

No, and that's my point. We should see those things, but we aren't. Because men think they're strong. They're not. They're breakable things in a hostile universe. So are women, but at least they're aware of it. =]

I should here point out that I'm completely paranoid about my health and tends to develop all sorts of phantom illnesses that mysteriously fades away once I've had a doctor look at them and proclaim them non-existant... ^_^; My idea about what is a reasonable level of concern for one's health might be somewhat skewed, therefore.

Nope, all I see is 'enlarge your penis make your girlfriend happy', mostly in my mailbox which is funny.

Yeah, those are deeply annoying. Women are under a lot more pressure to look good than men are, but there is one anathomical detail that must be in order or else nothing else about us matters. (*winces*)

We're not ALL size-whores.

I'm happy to hear that. It's my only hope, really. =]

But menstruation is not a 'fiddly bit' that goes wrong, my dear friend.

I know, and I wasn't talking about that. :)

Re: Apologies and admiration

[flyingskull.livejournal.com]

Hehehe! You see? We DO agree on basics. It's actually nice that we differ in details, makes life spicier.

Sorry for the quick-and-run but am at work.

HUGZ