Sorry, everyone, I was abducted...

[flyingskull]

... by well-meaning family and forced to go to nan's (Jamaica) to recuperate from what they called: "Your cretinous propention for overwork."

I'm all rested now and very sun-kissed and things and here I am.

So dear baeraad asked me what a strong feminine woman would be like and I got to thinking about that. Fact is I don't know. I think there are two kind of differences in general between males and females of the species Homo Sapiens. One is physiological (different build of body, different hormonal fluxes and so on) and the other is social and cultural, the behavioural brainwashing we all get since birth.

The physiological differences are not immense or many, that's obvious, but they do colour our thoughts and emotions in part and, IMO, can't be dismissed as non-existent, BUT what really complicates things are the learnesd social responses so that it's now quite hard to understand when one's own attitudes and choices are truly one's own and when they are a reaction one way or another (embracing or rejecting) to social gender archetypes and stereotypes.

One woman may be strong because she embraces the cultural gender mores and lives a happy and fulfilled life; another may be strong because she rejects the cultural gender mores and attempts to re-create herself according to her views, thus living a happy and fulfilled life. I could go on for hours. Maybe being 'weak' for a woman could mean wanting to be a man - though, of course, not in the transgender sense - and have the virtues our culture attributes to males... but this sounds awfully like one of the worst clichés in history, after all.

So, yes, there's a bit of me who wants to say a 'strong' woman is one who accepts her physiology and lives as she thinks best, ignoring what other people tell her she should be, but the biggest part of me knows this is as fallacious as they come. Hell, I don't even know if I'm 'strong' or 'weak'. The only thing I can tentatively say is that probably I'm stronger now, after being physically weak and incapacitated for a long time, than I was before. Maybe all I am now is a little more aware of who I am. Maybe that's all the strength that's needed, what say?

Oh, ingriam, I haven't forgotten you and your interesting fics. Not at all. And, as you write Alkanphel TEH PRETTY!!ELEVENTYONE!!!11, look at my pretty in icon. :-D

Comments

[fjm.livejournal.com]

Or at the bluntest she can be one of these very pretty , conventionally feminine women depicted here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y0Gx0sG434

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

Ah, there you are. :)

The physiological differences are not immense or many, that's obvious, but they do colour our thoughts and emotions in part and, IMO, can't be dismissed as non-existent

To this I would answer that they're also subject to individual variation. Knowing that someone is male or female tells you very little about them, because they'll never be a "typical" male or female - they'll be themselves, and in all but a few cases have both traits that are stereotypically male and ones that are stereotypically female. Sure, if you look at men and women as groups, you notice statistical inclinations for each one to have certain traits - but that's just not very useful when trying to understand and individual.

Again, I'm the living proof. I have some stereotypical guy traits, but I have a whole lot more stereotypical girl traits. And I don't feel that makes me less of a man - in fact, I will be as bold as to say that since I am, evidently, a man, the definition must be stretched to encompass me. =]

what really complicates things are the learnesd social responses so that it's now quite hard to understand when one's own attitudes and choices are truly one's own and when they are a reaction one way or another (embracing or rejecting) to social gender archetypes and stereotypes.

Agreed.

Actually, I was talking to a very smart person a while back who told me that people need archetypes and stereotypes to function - without some kind of predefined role to step into or at least to work from, we won't build any kind of identity at all - or at least, not a very interesting one. This, she went on to say, is exactly why we need many and varied archetypes, so that everyone can find at least one that suits them.

I think I might agree, though I'm not sure. It's a tricky question.

One woman may be strong because she embraces the cultural gender mores and lives a happy and fulfilled life; another may be strong because she rejects the cultural gender mores and attempts to re-create herself according to her views, thus living a happy and fulfilled life.

And I would again argue that ASOIAF, which started this discussion, has both types of female characters. I mean... how does Catelyn (to take an example that shows up in the first book) not fit the first category?

Maybe being 'weak' for a woman could mean wanting to be a man - though, of course, not in the transgender sense - and have the virtues our culture attributes to males...

What's wrong with having those virtues? They're not too bad, as virtues go. In fact, I'll go a step further and say that they're damn fine virtues all around and that the only reason they're attributed to males is that it's always been the males who have done the attributing. =]

I mean, this is really my point here, my problem with the whole Maureen Murdock thing. Most of the time, things that are "typically female" are things that are weak and which forces the people who ascribe to them to be weak. The archetype/stereotype of Woman is designed to be subservient and powerful. Of course it is. Men designed it.

This calls for some new archetypes, certainly - I'm all for new archetypes anyway, so I don't think women necessarily have to adopt traditionally male ones (though I don't see anything wrong with that per se). But I strongly object to any glorification of traditional femininity. That leads only to the Muhammed version of equality between the sexes - "sure, men and women are worth just as much, but by sheer coincidence, it's natural for men to do all the interesting, empowering things and for women to do all the boring, dead-end drudgery."

Sorry, that was ranty. ^_^; I do kind of feel strongly about it, because I hang out on some communities that are full of women who, according to traditional values and a lot of modern feminists of the Maureen Murdock bent, aren't proper women.

[baeraad.livejournal.com]

So, yes, there's a bit of me who wants to say a 'strong' woman is one who accepts her physiology and lives as she thinks best, ignoring what other people tell her she should be, but the biggest part of me knows this is as fallacious as they come.

I don't know, it sounds like a pretty good definition to me... though "accept" does not have to mean "approve of." We accept what we cannot change. But we don't have to approve of something that was inflicted on us without our consent. I think that's an important distinction - a lot of the evils done by religion are caused by the fact that religion teaches us to approve of things that were inevitable when the religion was founded but are now easily avoidable.

Hell, I don't even know if I'm 'strong' or 'weak'.

You always come off as pretty strong to me, whether I agree with you on the specifics or not. :)

Maybe all I am now is a little more aware of who I am. Maybe that's all the strength that's needed, what say?

Knowing exactly where your limits are does provide a lot of peace of mind, and even power of sorts. :)

Oh, on a final note - despite my outspoken dislike of gender roles, I am, just for fun, plotting a story with a heroine who is very feminine and still strong and independent (that's a sort of reaction against Maureen Murdock too - I want to write a character who doesn't need any "disconnection from the feminine" to be heroic in the first place). Your input would be appreciated... though it always is, of course. :)

[ingriam.livejournal.com]

Hmm, never heard of Maureen Murdock; but your icon is very pretty, and I'm starting to wonder who it is. :)

[sirena-lune.livejournal.com]

I don't believe in "strong feminine women" I believe in strong people. ; D

And a strong person (to me anyway) is someone who has the capacity to understand their mistakes and faults and to own up to them. Someone who experiences fear but doesn't let that stop them. A person who walks the fine line between reason and emotion.

Or, something like that, anyway... ^^U