flyingskull (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
flyingskull) wrote2006-10-25 02:39 am
flyingskull) wrote2006-10-25 02:39 am
Wintersmith et al
My very good and patient friend ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
baeraad in response to one of my many proddings wrote in his lj:
Oh man yes! :D I read it a few days ago. And from the moment I opened it until I got to the last page, I spent all my time doing one of two things; reading or walking briskly around my apartment trying to resist the urge to whoop and holler in a way offensive to my neighbours. :D
Oh, the characters! Oh, the plot! Oh, the grandeur seamlessly fitting together with the matter-of-fact realism! Oh, my complete inability to say anything on the subject without melting into a puddle of pure Fanboy! ^_^;;
I did remember to study the style, and I must admit it was interesting. There's a detail here, there's a detail there, and somehow it comes together into an entire world. This is definitely what I have to try for - no long descriptions, but a framework for the readers to fill out.
Oh, and I was very fond of the beginning. Not something to try in a stand-alone book, I think, but seeing as this is the third book in a series... we know pretty much what shape things will have, don't we? We know Tiffany is going to be exposed to the Discworld-witch version of zen philosophy, we know that there's going to be an antagonist who's more a force of nature than a person, and we know that there's going to be some kind of showdown where she's going to have to demonstrate what she's learned (the real Witch Trials aren't competitions, are they? They turn up out of nowhere, and the witch either knows her stuff or she doesn't, and if she doesn't, she's not the only one who's going to have to pay).
So here we get it right from the start - just how powerful Tiffany has become, and just how inadequate that is in the face of what she's dealing with. So all through the story, we know that this is where we're heading. We never have to ask ourselves if it's going to get worse before it gets better. We know that it will.
I also love the escalating scale of responsibility Tiffany has to take in each book. In Wee Free Men, the problem came from outside, and she was the only one who could deal with it. In Hat Full of Sky, it was her own desires made a mess of things, but they had to be triggered from the outside. In Wintersmith, it's her fault. Period. She didn't mean any harm, but she did something stupid, and now she's going to have to deal with the consequences before her world ends because of it.
First I don't think that beginning works only because it's part of a series, in fact I am quite sure it would work SMASHINGLY well in any novel. Think of it, imagine this is the first book by Pterry you've ever read. Wouldn't you want to read on to know what the fuck has happened and how and why and to whom and who the HELL is this girl? Me, I would and I'm sure I'm a pretty average reader when it comes to pant over a book and forget to eat at first reading. I come over all critiquy and things at the third or fourth reading, actually.
Then, I don't know you but Tiffany Aching is a heroine I love to dislike. I really do and I think that THIS is the measure of Pterry's real greatness as an author. Look, I'm not sure I can explain, but... well, you see, in a way the Tiffany trilogy is a kind of anti-Potter thingy. There you have your misunderstood but quite hefty hero ('kay, 's a heroine and am not spitting on that but please allow me), there you have your compeer nemesis who is nothing half as lethal as the real baddies (alright, not exactly baddies as such, this is Pterry, not some clichéd pen pusher) but who is snotty and things and you have other compeers who may not seem much, but in the end they are pretty good at things. See where I'm going?
Tiffany is... *takes a deep breath* ... complicated, which I love, and not particularly lovely, which is alright because she has THE quality that really makes her a hero: she takes the consequences of her actions. She's pretty cool, in fact she's way too cool in her own estimation, and here's where the Potter parallel comes in. And you know why I love Pterry so much - BTW I think Maya's getting there, slowly but if she keeps this last style of writing, she's definitely getting there - because he ain't afraid of presenting a not very likeable heroine and he never but never shirks on her bad - very really bad - qualities and he never sugarcoats things BUT anyone can see why she's the bloody heroine. Not because she's powerful, but because she takes responsibilities and fucking PAYS her dues. I don't know many writers who can do that, y'know? Keep the ethics and not fall into the 'loveable' hero pattern.
So what does one do when the hero/ine is not that likeable a person? :-D One gives a long hard look at the baduns and sees if there's anything that resonates there. And oooooooooh LOOOK! We have two!
I truly find Annagramma and Mrs Earwig lovely persons. YEP! I confess: if Granny weren't so... so... oh fuck so on THE EDGE all of the time I wouldn't love her so deeply or so much. The fact that Granny is never but never allowing herself Tiffany's kind of arrogance makes her own arrogance endearing. But my heart, in a way, would be with Mrs Earwig and her daring theory of combining male and female magic all the way and all the time.
Annagramma - Tiffany's Draco - LEARNS! Wow! A character who allows facts and experience to influence her way of thinking and acting! Wow! I mean. WOW. I mean she learns she is NOT redeemed. You see the utter awesomeness? And also Annagramma learns lots more than Tiffany, y'know? Because after all's said and done and after Tiffany's learned what it takes to re-define legends and anthropomorphic personifications, she STILL is going to join the dance AGAIN. Catch Annagramma doing something so stupid or being so absent-minded and caught up in the excitement of the moment to do something so stupid. See what I mean?
And I love Mr Wintersmith and his ice roses that melt in the warmth of a human hand and his ice palace of dreams. I love tragedies and all Tiffany's stories are tragedies, have you unoticed? Tragedies hidden in folk rhymes and ballads that are made clear and present. And any person who dares belittle the MacFleagles' triumph will know the extent of my wrath. Which, I hasten to say, is rather more Granny-like than anything else.
Well, this would have been too long a reply and also that thread was starting to get looooooong, so this is a mercy cut, or surgery operation.
baeraad in response to one of my many proddings wrote in his lj:Oh man yes! :D I read it a few days ago. And from the moment I opened it until I got to the last page, I spent all my time doing one of two things; reading or walking briskly around my apartment trying to resist the urge to whoop and holler in a way offensive to my neighbours. :D
Oh, the characters! Oh, the plot! Oh, the grandeur seamlessly fitting together with the matter-of-fact realism! Oh, my complete inability to say anything on the subject without melting into a puddle of pure Fanboy! ^_^;;
I did remember to study the style, and I must admit it was interesting. There's a detail here, there's a detail there, and somehow it comes together into an entire world. This is definitely what I have to try for - no long descriptions, but a framework for the readers to fill out.
Oh, and I was very fond of the beginning. Not something to try in a stand-alone book, I think, but seeing as this is the third book in a series... we know pretty much what shape things will have, don't we? We know Tiffany is going to be exposed to the Discworld-witch version of zen philosophy, we know that there's going to be an antagonist who's more a force of nature than a person, and we know that there's going to be some kind of showdown where she's going to have to demonstrate what she's learned (the real Witch Trials aren't competitions, are they? They turn up out of nowhere, and the witch either knows her stuff or she doesn't, and if she doesn't, she's not the only one who's going to have to pay).
So here we get it right from the start - just how powerful Tiffany has become, and just how inadequate that is in the face of what she's dealing with. So all through the story, we know that this is where we're heading. We never have to ask ourselves if it's going to get worse before it gets better. We know that it will.
I also love the escalating scale of responsibility Tiffany has to take in each book. In Wee Free Men, the problem came from outside, and she was the only one who could deal with it. In Hat Full of Sky, it was her own desires made a mess of things, but they had to be triggered from the outside. In Wintersmith, it's her fault. Period. She didn't mean any harm, but she did something stupid, and now she's going to have to deal with the consequences before her world ends because of it.
First I don't think that beginning works only because it's part of a series, in fact I am quite sure it would work SMASHINGLY well in any novel. Think of it, imagine this is the first book by Pterry you've ever read. Wouldn't you want to read on to know what the fuck has happened and how and why and to whom and who the HELL is this girl? Me, I would and I'm sure I'm a pretty average reader when it comes to pant over a book and forget to eat at first reading. I come over all critiquy and things at the third or fourth reading, actually.
Then, I don't know you but Tiffany Aching is a heroine I love to dislike. I really do and I think that THIS is the measure of Pterry's real greatness as an author. Look, I'm not sure I can explain, but... well, you see, in a way the Tiffany trilogy is a kind of anti-Potter thingy. There you have your misunderstood but quite hefty hero ('kay, 's a heroine and am not spitting on that but please allow me), there you have your compeer nemesis who is nothing half as lethal as the real baddies (alright, not exactly baddies as such, this is Pterry, not some clichéd pen pusher) but who is snotty and things and you have other compeers who may not seem much, but in the end they are pretty good at things. See where I'm going?
Tiffany is... *takes a deep breath* ... complicated, which I love, and not particularly lovely, which is alright because she has THE quality that really makes her a hero: she takes the consequences of her actions. She's pretty cool, in fact she's way too cool in her own estimation, and here's where the Potter parallel comes in. And you know why I love Pterry so much - BTW I think Maya's getting there, slowly but if she keeps this last style of writing, she's definitely getting there - because he ain't afraid of presenting a not very likeable heroine and he never but never shirks on her bad - very really bad - qualities and he never sugarcoats things BUT anyone can see why she's the bloody heroine. Not because she's powerful, but because she takes responsibilities and fucking PAYS her dues. I don't know many writers who can do that, y'know? Keep the ethics and not fall into the 'loveable' hero pattern.
So what does one do when the hero/ine is not that likeable a person? :-D One gives a long hard look at the baduns and sees if there's anything that resonates there. And oooooooooh LOOOK! We have two!
I truly find Annagramma and Mrs Earwig lovely persons. YEP! I confess: if Granny weren't so... so... oh fuck so on THE EDGE all of the time I wouldn't love her so deeply or so much. The fact that Granny is never but never allowing herself Tiffany's kind of arrogance makes her own arrogance endearing. But my heart, in a way, would be with Mrs Earwig and her daring theory of combining male and female magic all the way and all the time.
Annagramma - Tiffany's Draco - LEARNS! Wow! A character who allows facts and experience to influence her way of thinking and acting! Wow! I mean. WOW. I mean she learns she is NOT redeemed. You see the utter awesomeness? And also Annagramma learns lots more than Tiffany, y'know? Because after all's said and done and after Tiffany's learned what it takes to re-define legends and anthropomorphic personifications, she STILL is going to join the dance AGAIN. Catch Annagramma doing something so stupid or being so absent-minded and caught up in the excitement of the moment to do something so stupid. See what I mean?
And I love Mr Wintersmith and his ice roses that melt in the warmth of a human hand and his ice palace of dreams. I love tragedies and all Tiffany's stories are tragedies, have you unoticed? Tragedies hidden in folk rhymes and ballads that are made clear and present. And any person who dares belittle the MacFleagles' triumph will know the extent of my wrath. Which, I hasten to say, is rather more Granny-like than anything else.
Well, this would have been too long a reply and also that thread was starting to get looooooong, so this is a mercy cut, or surgery operation.
no subject
I see it very clearly, yes. :D I love that Anagramma's traits are constantly shown to go both ways. She's obnoxious and overbearing, but only because she really does have some leadership skills. She's intellectually condescending, but only because she really is pretty smart. And she bullshits her way through life, but the thing is, successfully bullshitting your way through a situation is a rare and useful talent. =]
And really, Anagramma's just a very normal witch who's a bit unsteady on her feet at first. All the witches are flaming primadonnas. They act like evil bitches from hell at times. And they are all very intelligent in some ways and very silly in others. "We all have our funny little ways. Except me, of course." Hee hee, I loved that one! :D
And also Annagramma learns lots more than Tiffany, y'know?
I love that Annagramma not only gets to save the day (with one of those fireball Tiffany thought were so stupid, no less!), but that she gets to be the sensible one and harry Tiffany on her way like a proper witch after that. And that comment about "I have no idea what that was, but if it was after me, I wouldn't stand around here babbling until it came back!" sounded a bit like a fledgling Weatherwax - while it's pretty strongly implied that Tiffany is the heir to the throne that Diamanda only thought she was, she may just have more competition than she thought. Annagramma is going in the right direction now, and if it's one thing she's good at, it's momentum. =]
And I love Mr Wintersmith and his ice roses that melt in the warmth of a human hand and his ice palace of dreams.
Oh yes. Me too. :)
It seems to me that the three books so far have worked on three different levels. TWFM was a fairytale, where the heroine had to go on a quest, visit exotic and magical locations, and rescue people from a tyrant. AHFOS was... a personal horror story, perhaps (we see you. Now we are you definitely gave me shivers, at least), but either way, a great deal grittier and more about the main character herself than about what she was facing.
Wintersmith goes beyond that. It's is pure myth. Winter itself has fallen in love with a mortal. How huge is that?
And yes, it's a tragedy, because there's no bad guy. The Wintersmith is in love, or he thinks he is - and he acts on that feeling according to his nature, and according to the only kind of reason he understands. It wouldn't be so bad if he was ending the world because he was in love and had been rejected and wanted revenge. That would make him the bad guy. But he's ending the world as an act of love, as a token of his affection. He's ending the world because to him, that's the greatest gift he can give to his beloved, and nothing but the greatest gift will do to express his feelings.
I'm sorry, I can't really find words for this. :) So let me just say again that I can't get over how immensive the scope of this story is, while at the same time being so firmly grounded in mundane reality (or the Disc equivalent thereof =]).
Are the other two books tragedies, though? The second one I can sort of understand - the Hiver is definitely a tragic figure, wanting to be someone and not knowing how. The first book, though? The Queen is sort of pathetic, I guess, but she doesn't really seem to be aware of it, which makes it hard to feel sorry for her. =]
no subject
Manipulating the witches to give the position to Annagramma is another lesson for Tiffany, after all. A couple of lessons, IMO. First, that responsibility doesn't start and end with oneself, but it pertains to communities as well. And second that her way isn't the only way and people you've helped may be much better than you at some things and won't ever thank you for helping if you condescend.
It's a VERY good book for children!
Well, tragedies aren't written for people to feel sorry for any characters, y'know? The reader is supposed to feel all upset and angry and lots of things, but 'sorry'? No. It's the clash of people acting according to their own natures when it would be much better for everyone if they acted against their own natures. I don't know if I explained that very clearly, but that's what tragedies are: think Sandman. I personally think it's Tiffany who's the tragic figure in the books, not her adversaries, so to speak. That's why the scope increases with each book, Tiffany's growing and what she ultimately faces is always herself: bigger, more powerful, more aware, but never enough to stop being blind to some things.
Oh and yes, all the witches are primadonnas, they have to be. They don't belong, not even Nanny, they need something to make themselves feel good and it has to come from themselves because it can't come from a community they can't belong to. Which is also why they are wise and silly at the same time. it's the Edge. this also explains Mrs Earwig (and, incidentally her pathetic attempt to change her name's pronunciation, I know you've never seen the BBC sitcom "Keeping up Appearences" - which is spiffy! - but the protagonist, a woman who desperately wants to pretend she belongs in the upper classes, keeps saying her surname 'Bucket' is actually pronounced 'Bouquet' (as in French). But more later.
no subject
It does seem oddly... fitting. :) But Pratchett is rather too subtle for my sledgehammer of a mind sometimes, I fear. I bet there's all sorts of references in his books that I just don't see... and don't get me started on Gaiman. =]
I'm quite sure I'm not the only one who's laughed her head off at the anagram thing
I was surprised and horrified at that point in the books. "Oh shit," I thought, "it's him after all, boy are we in trouble now!" I shall now proceed to hang my head in shame. ^_^;;
Granny isn't one to let life repeat itself over and over just to push home a lesson, after all.
Once should be enough to teach you to know better. If it's not, then you're disqualified for making your own decisions in that particular area of your life. I can see the sense behind that philosophy, though I must admit that personally, I have never learned anything the first time. I'd be a horrible witch, and not just because I'm squeemish. =]
The attitude towards learning in Discworld books is interesting, actually. There's a lot of respect for engineering and hands-on knowledge, and book-learning gets treated with affectionate amusement (like wizards, it tends to be completely useless 99% of the time and completely crucial the last 1% - witness the Ephebian philosophers, who spend most of their lives arguing about nonsense and, along the way, off-handedly delivers one or two ideas that are just so ingenius that they change the world). But the kind of knowledge that gets the most credit seems to be the kind that is never fully articulated - the kind that's intuitive. Not intuitive as in "listen to your heart" but intuitive as in sensing a pattern in your past experiences and acting on it.
It's a VERY good book for children!
Hear, hear! :D That's why it's so annoying when I get told that because I loathe Rowling and Paolini, I clearly don't like children's books. I do so like children's books. I just don't like bad children's books. ;)
no subject
This may quite possibly be the best definition of "tragedy" I've ever heard. 0_0 It definitely suits Wintersmith. And I guess the elements are there in the other ones, too... but would you agree that they're more prominent in Wintersmith?
think Sandman
I see what you mean, but when it comes to tragedy, I'm thinking Troy.
...
Please don't despise me for having seen the movie but never read the actual Iliad. ^_^;;
what she ultimately faces is always herself
Hmmm. Not sure - I may have to reread before I can comment on that interpretation.
I do notice that a recurring theme is Tiffany trying to save herself from the self-loathing that's always threatening to crash down on her. She knows that she's too smart and too sensible to be a very nice person, so her eternal struggle seems to be proving, time and again, that being smart and sensible can make up for not being nice.
She's the anti-Agnes, really. She tries to survive not having a wonderful personality. And her hair is apparently nothing special, either. =]
Oh and yes, all the witches are primadonnas, they have to be.
I do love the way superior ability is treated. Fledgling witches are the kids that are a lot smarter than other people, and who think about why things are as they are and how they can be made to be otherwise. Witchcraft (the whole thing, not just the magic) is the fulfilment of their ambitions, because it's knowledge and understanding, and because it's the power to put that understanding to work.
But when you know what to do and have the power to do it, everything suddenly becomes your problem. You have to help people, because otherwise anything that happens to them is your fault. That's the price of wanting more than others and getting it. And no one's going to force you to pay it, but if you don't, then you're an asshole - and while a witch can be a bitch and enjoy it, she would never suffer being an asshole.
This, to me, is wonderful. It's the perfect compromise between individualism and collectivism. A witch is the servant of the community, in a way, but she's most certainly not a martyr.
I know you've never seen the BBC sitcom "Keeping up Appearences"
I have so. It was hilerious. :D I love how Hyacinth's neighbours regard her with a kind of fatalistic dread. "Death comes to us all. So does taxes. And in this neighbourhood, so does Hynacinth's candlelight suppers." =]